Duality and The Stories We Tell by Donald Donald Draper

Have you ever heard the phrase, “acting like a chameleon”? In short, people call others chameleons when it seems like they’re not acting like themselves. People with chameleon-like traits are those who rapidly shift personalities, dispositions and beliefs to meet the situation at hand. 

Sometimes this kind of behavior can be helpful, such as during an important business meeting, or when you’re meeting your girlfriend’s parents for the first time. Other times it can be drastically unhelpful. If you’re constantly taking on your friends’ or coworkers’ personalities just to earn some goodwill with them, they’ll quickly see through your veneer and find you disingenuous. Or maybe they won’t, but you’ll grow increasingly dissatisfied at your inability to be authentic around others. 

That’s the position our client today is in. His name’s Donald Draper, and he’s leading a dual life: on the surface, he’s a suave, no-nonsense ad man with a glamorous life and countless great stories to tell. Underneath all of that, however, is a man waiting to be understood. 

In today’s episode of Character Coaching, we’re going to help Don through this duality he’s experiencing by leading him through some hands-on coaching. To help him do this, Don’s written us some journal entries about his current situation. Let’s reflect on those now and see if we can’t help Don find some sort of peace. 

Don’s first journal entry: leading a double life 

Entry One:

Dick Whitman, meet Donald Draper. The ad man, the legend. The name comes with a mystique, a caution… a story. The man who worked his way up on Madison Avenue to become a partner at the legendary Sterling Cooper. He wakes up every day to a beautiful woman, a beautiful penthouse suite and more money than any man could handle. He can have anything he wants for breakfast, lunch and dinner. He can because of his brain. His ideas. The stories that he tells. And because of these stories that he tells, he affords this certain lifestyle and Because of this lifestyle, he can take care of his ex-wife, his kids, his past… But how can Donald Draper keep up with this life? Is it the money? The drinks? The women? No. It’s the knowledge that the more he becomes Donald Draper, the less he is Dick Whitman. A farmer’s son. A nobody. But I am somebody, although I am not at peace with that somebody. It’s strange that the one story I can’t sell is my own.” Donald Draper 

First impressions: living with an identity crisis 

What an entry to unpack! It seems Don’s got a lot going on. So much so, that he’s writing to us in the third person, and also including an alter ego — this “Dick Whitman” character — in the mix. While we don’t want to assume anything about Don going into this coaching session, I think it’s safe to say we’re dealing with a man who has some pretty big identity issues going on. 

Before we start giving any advice, let’s try to learn more about Don’s situation. When people share cryptic messages like these, it’s hard to really get the full picture of their unique challenges, so we want to get curious about what exactly it is about this lifestyle that makes Don miserable. Is it the drinking? The women? The separation from a starkly different childhood?

More than that, we want to get at the root of who Don really is, instead of who he isn’t. Almost everything in this first journal entry concerns lifestyle choices that Don feels uncomfortable or “out of place” with, rather than choices that make him happy.   

If you’re someone who’s currently experiencing an identity crisis because you feel like your chameleon-like traits are forcing you to live an inauthentic or double life, you might be able to relate just now. Once we’ve committed to behaving in inauthentic ways or engaging in lifestyles that aren’t compatible with our true desires, it can be tough to come back to your emotional and spiritual center. But that’s what coaching is for!

So, to start helping Don (and anyone out there grappling with a bit of an identity crisis), we’re going to start homing in on questions that get at the root of his character. Who is Dick Whitman, and what would a more authentic lifestyle look like to him?

Let’s ask those questions and see what happens. 

Next: moving toward one’s true purpose  

Questions:

What is it about your current lifestyle that you really like? What stresses you out about this rat race? What does not being at peace feel like? What would feeling at peace look like? 

Reply:

“That moment where you breathe and don’t feel like the past is holding your feet down while you try to run away. But maybe that tells me something. Maybe there is something to Dick Whitman. Being someone who can just be.”

Analysis:

What’s interesting about this journal reply is that the first entry was very long, rich and descriptive. Now that we’ve moved onto the next phase, the follow-up entry is terse and to the point. There might be something to that — it might be that Don’s been away from his other half, “Dick,” for so long, that he doesn’t have all the words or feelings to conceptualize what that other part of himself wants just yet. 

Before we go too far down that rabbit hole, let’s latch onto another thing that this reply tells us. There’s an old saying that goes, “you can’t run away from yourself, because wherever you go, that’s where you are.” I think we’re learning that that’s increasingly true of Don. More than just a chameleon, he’s using his alter ego to escape a person, or life, he had before. And there’s very little healing to be done when one of your major roadblocks is your past itself. 

From what we’ve learned so far, I don’t think it’s necessary for Don and Dick to exist separately from one another. I think what’s more important is that the man who embodies both of these people is able to reconcile each part of himself, and bring his identities together. 

Rather than think about all his many dichotomies, what if we just asked Don what it would feel like for him to just “be?” If he could just be without thinking so much about who he’s trying to be, what might that look like? What would his schedule look like? Let’s get really granular about it. What would his breakfast, lunch and dinner be like, and what would he do every day? 

Sometimes taking people out of their heads and helping them think about more day-to-day decisions can help with identity crises, so let’s explore those options and see where they take us. 

Follow-up Questions:

What would it look like for you to ‘just be’? What would you do in the morning, afternoon, evening? Where would you live? Would you live by yourself? Would you live as Donald Draper or Dick Whitman?

The check-in: finding peace on a beach

Alright, we’ve given Don and Dick a few weeks to respond. Let’s see what they’ve come up with. Here’s their final journal entry: 

Closing Journal:

“I would be on a beach. The sky would be as endless as the sea and even though they are parallel, it would look like they are touching. That’s how blue the sky and the water are. I would hang up my suit and wear something comfortable. Because I want to be comfortable. I would swim every single day and just think. That’s what my peace would be. That is what I want more than anything.”

Final Thoughts:

This is a fantastic closing journal, and it tells us a lot about where Don’s head is at. First of all, you’ll notice he’s not even using either one of his egos to describe his perfect reality — he’s not calling himself Don or Dick, because in his true state of peace, he’s not thinking about the identities in his head. Instead, he’s simply having a relaxing, tranquil experience. 

What’s interesting is that, when it comes to experiences like these, people often think that tranquility is a place or destination. The truth, though, is that more than anything, peace is a mindset. When we overcome the challenges and difficulties of our own minds, we’re able to have peace in our everyday lives, and not just while we’re at a beach, or on a vacation. 

So, if I were to continue coaching Don, what I’d move to next are questions like: how can you get some of that “beach” feeling where you’re at right now? And how can you establish a sense of peace even if you’re working as an ad man in New York? 

That goes for anyone grappling with their own identity crisis. What does peace look like to you, and how can you have a little bit of that in your own life right now? What would it feel like to let go of all the identities you’re holding in your head, and just “be” for a little bit? I’m curious to know!

Alright — we’re running out of time here, but if you want a more in-depth conversation on identity, duality, personality and peace, you should scroll up and listen to our full podcast conversation about Don’s dilemma. If you like what you hear, you might want to mosey on over to our blog to get some of your own personal coaching!

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Jon Rom: Character coaching is an exploration of coaching principles applied to fictional characters by the host. Any likeness to real people or situations is coincidental. And none of the advice given is intended to take the place of real coaching. Learn more about getting accessible coaching at the journalthattalksback.com.

[00:00:21] Jonathan Friedman: I'm Jonathan

[00:00:22] Jon Rom: and I'm John and this is Character Coaching, coaching, character, coaching, ching ching.

We're coming to you live from the studio. Uh, Jonathan has a report to give about a lost episode. Uh, Jonathan, I'll throw it to you.

[00:00:45] Jonathan Friedman: So, somehow and I don't know if this is something that a lot of people in the Canadian area are, are experiencing, but since things started to open up, I've been getting reports of Sasquatch is breaking into various households.

And John and I have been recording now, you know, these episodes for a couple of weeks and out of nowhere, one of the episodes, and that are where I feel really bad because this, these journals have been so good coming from and this guy we're going to share with you yet again, but, uh, I, I believe that a Sasquatch saw this episode, and now it's kind of this, you know, like the dead sea scroll, last scroll kind of thing.

And I've, I went out into, off the balcony, looking into the field. That's behind my apartment, looking for this giant furry creature and Jon, I, I couldn't find him.

[00:01:42] Jon Rom: I believe that the Sasquatch things, wisdom grow on trees and that I can just go into my wisdom garden and, and collect all my, all my sagely coaching and all your sagely coaching. And we can just combine our powers whenever we want and, and, and can drop those spicy delicious nugs. But we, we slave over a hot stove creating our MIDI wisdom nugs, and it was lost to time.

[00:02:17] Jonathan Friedman: So my concern is that for anyone else again, in the Canadian area, or maybe the Northern states, I don't know how fast Sasquatches are, but if you are either recording a podcast or you're writing some beefy essays and you're including some spicy nugs, my concern is that's what the Sasquatch feeds off of.

And only once spicy nugs. And you know, John, I got some new locks for my doors. Um, some grates for behind the window, just to make sure that there's there are no more incidences like this because yeah, that's, that's serious. I don't want any more furry beasts in this house that aren't me. Do you know what I mean?

[00:02:56] Jon Rom: So you're saying you want to stop all the furries from being in your house?

[00:03:00] Jonathan Friedman: I think that's exactly what I'm saying, especially of the bigfoot, the abominable. The Sasquatch variety.

[00:03:08] Jon Rom: You want to try that one word? Do you want to try that one again?

[00:03:11] Jonathan Friedman: Abominable? Abominable. It's like worchestichire sauce.

How do you even say a war chest? Like if you can't pronounce it, don't put it in my burger. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:03:24] Jon Rom: That's where the problem is that you have trouble pronouncing the word lettuce.

[00:03:29] Jonathan Friedman: Yes. "lettuce"

[00:03:30] Jon Rom: "lettuce" yeah. So you don't want it in your burger either

[00:03:33] Jonathan Friedman: in Spanish Lechuga did you know that?

[00:03:36] Jon Rom: Lechuga?

[00:03:38] Jonathan Friedman: And lettuce in Spanish is Lechuga.

[00:03:41] Jon Rom: I learned, you know, it was worth it just for that. I learned a word in Spanish, um, and that made the whole, the whole thing worthwhile, even though I cannot, for the life of me, remember. The coaching advice we gave. And so we might as well be, be starting from scratch.

[00:04:02] Jonathan Friedman: From scratch, we will start, we are going to let's do this to spite that Sasquatch. We want to make sure that, um, if the, if the Sasquatch, if you're out there listening, nothing's going to stop us from coaching this fantastic client we have. And you should stop eating people spicy nugs, want spicy nugs? go to the drive-through just like everybody else you can probably walk through because...

[00:04:26] Jon Rom: My mama always told me that the best way to the podcast is with spite in your heart and the Sasquatch on your mind.

[00:04:34] Jonathan Friedman: You talked a lot about checking our story today.

My story remains in check Sasquatch. We got our eyes on you. We will find you.

[00:04:40] Jon Rom: All right. So I know you have a journal for me. Do you want to do I want to drop it like it's hot?

[00:04:47] Jonathan Friedman: I will drop it like it's hot because Sasquatch can't touch hot items. So we will drop it specifically in that manner, in that manner only.

So today we have a journal from honestly, a client who I've been working with for quite some time here at the journal that talks back and we've, we've had a really interesting relationship and this guy is eloquent storyteller. He's a, a high hour businessperson. And I think I've been learning a lot from him.

And I really can't wait to share this journal with you, Jon, are you ready?

[00:05:23] Jon Rom: I was born ready.

[00:05:24] Jonathan Friedman: Ready for reading. Ready for what?

[00:05:26] Jon Rom: That's not true

that I was, I was ready. I was ready for nap time.

Are we napping? We're not napping. Okay. Then I know. Wait, let me get myself podcast ready. All right. Spites bites, bites, hate anger, darkness.

All right, I'm ready. I'm emotionally ready.

[00:05:43] Jonathan Friedman: You needed that spike. And also, I feel like a podcast where we just nap would be exciting for a few very select people.

[00:05:50] Jon Rom: I use podcasts to sleep a lot.

Does that count?

[00:05:54] Jonathan Friedman: I mean, if we were sleeping on this podcast, if we had nap time right now, do You think people would be interested in that?

Is that, is that something? Listeners out there except for you Sasquatch because we don't care what you have to say,

[00:06:08] Jon Rom: eat, eat, but Sasquatch

[00:06:10] Jonathan Friedman: Go to heck Sasquatch.

[00:06:11] Jon Rom: Go to Heck

[00:06:13] Jonathan Friedman: feel free to let us know if you want us to nap on a, on a, on a very special release episode of the show. Uh, but Jon, until then I'm going to jump right into, uh, Donald D's journal.

Are you ready?

[00:06:23] Jon Rom: All right, read it. I want to know what it's called. Start with the title and then work your way down.

[00:06:29] Jonathan Friedman: Just like we do every time. So here we go. Here's our journal. It's called "Duality and the stories we tell" by Donald D.

Dick Whitman meets Donald Draper. The odd man, the legend. The name comes with a mystique, a caution, a story.

The man who worked his way up on Madison Avenue to become a partner at the legendary Sterling Cooper. He wakes up every day to a beautiful woman, a beautiful penthouse suite, and more money than any man could handle. He can have anything he wants for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. He can because of his brain, his ideas, and the stories that he tells because of these stories that he tells, he affords this certain lifestyle.

And because of this lifestyle, he can take care of his ex-wife, his kids, and his past, but how can Donald Draper keep up with this life? Is it the money, the drinks, the women? No, it's the knowledge that the more he becomes Donald Draper, the less he's equipment, a farmer's son, a nobody. I am somebody, although I am not at peace with that somebody. Strangely, the one story I can't sell is my own.

So, Jon, I felt like I dropped it appropriately at probably 4 25, 4 30 degrees Fahrenheit. Um, I'd love to hear what you thought about this.

[00:07:45] Jon Rom: I thought that this, this Donald Draper, Dick Whitman gentlemen is is living a dual life. And I'm not just saying that because of the title, I'm saying that because he's a, he's talking to himself, you know, it's funny.

We do, we do get, we do get these, uh, journal posts where people are just straight up, um, talking about themselves in the third person. And, you know, while you don't necessarily drive to that when someone's, uh, doing it in the street, when someone does it in a journal post, I feel like it's always telling you something, it's, it's a separation from oneself.

Uh, but that's, that could be an assumption. And, you know, we know, we know how we feel about assumptions. What did you think, Jonathan?

[00:08:36] Jonathan Friedman: I thought it was really interesting and I think you hit the nail right on the head and that this person, Donald D feels like there are these two competing uh, forces that are trying to make space in the mind and the body of Donald D.

And on one side, we have this Dick Whitman character who as Donald D says, is a farmer's son, nobody. Then, on the other hand, we have this illustrious career of, uh, Donald Draper, somebody who as the choice of who he dates, the choice of where he lives, the choice of breakfast, lunch, and dinner, the choice and the luxury of, of money.

And also interestingly can take care of his ex-wife, his kids, and his past. And when I was reading through this, other than trying not to think of Donald duck, every time I saw Donald D what is he trying to do, is he trying to push down his past? Is he trying to like shove it further, like underneath his heart of hearts? Or is this person somebody he's really happy with?

Do you know what I mean?

[00:09:49] Jon Rom: I wonder 'cause you have the benefit of knowing that he's, um, supplying you with this background. He, you know that this is on his mind. And he's putting it down on paper. We don't know what he's doing on his day today. If, if, if it's buried deep down there and it's just for the benefit of the journal, that it all gets dug up.

But I feel like you can't, you can't be this vivid of a, of a, of a storyteller and not play your own story in your mind. It's just very difficult because it's in your nature.

[00:10:27] Jonathan Friedman: You know, In a way, Donald D sees that himself has this screenwriter, and he's kind of in a way, an actor in his own story. And what I think is unique about this story and this play, the show is that Donald D writes his character and he gets to make his own choices.

Much like the rest of us can and do, but in the case of Donald D, he is not a piece, as he says, with that past person or a character. So for me as a coach, beyond, you know, the thinking of checking my story, I I'm concerned about what piece to Donald D looks like. I want to know what it means to him.

And while, you know, this is well written. There's a lot of stuff for me. I, I see a lot of fluffy, you know, like that marshmallow spread, you can buy at the grocery store.

[00:11:28] Jon Rom: Yeah. It's good for a sandwich, but it's not good for getting to know who Donald Draper is. We found out a lot about who Donald Draper isn't.

[00:11:38] Jonathan Friedman: A lot about who he isn't and just to just a taste of who Dick Whitman is. And that's interesting to me, if it's something that occupies so much of his mind, why isn't it? Why is it not occupying much of the journal? Is it something like a lot of people who journal, they kind of leave these sentences in for us coaches to sort of decode and it's kind of done unconsciously, but we're given these, like these bits that as coaches, we were like, okay, we got to jump on that?

Um, or if it's just something that he doesn't know how to share in a story form, if Donald D is sharing everything in a story and he can't, or he's not at peace with that story, it's not necessarily one that he can't sell. It's not one that he feels comfortable telling. So for us as coaches, we want to look at really getting the story and really understanding, you know, both characters, equipment, and Donald Draper.

We also do not proceed with caution but we want to proceed with care. We want to make sure that we ask questions in a way that isn't, you know, trying to like grab all of the information at once. We want to go one step at a time here.

[00:12:54] Jon Rom: Yeah, because you have to identify the real information that you want. You have to be willing to admit to yourself that even though the person can illustrate all these ideas, they might not be ready.

It might be pulling teeth to get the real story out of them. They've, uh, they've been in their head long enough that they've already reached chapter 17 and you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, go back, go back chapter one. What, what are we, uh, what are we even talking about? Uh, who is Donald Draper? What, uh, what is it?

Is the money? the drinks? The women? The, highlight of his life? Is that, is that what this, uh, a journal entry is, is telling us? Or are we being told no, look away, look away from the shiny parts of life. There's something else I value here.

[00:13:44] Jonathan Friedman: It's very interesting because this is a journal where if we were to just, you know, say, Hey Donald, I think you should focus on your past and focus on Dick women. It could be that we're way off base with that. And really what we want to do here is ask questions. We don't want to make those assumptions. Let's focus on one character at a time.

Really. We want to ask some questions so we can extract a bit more information to then ask a question and get the beliefs and understand more of the picture.

[00:14:17] Jon Rom: And then I'll tell you, and I'll tell you an assumption. I'll tell you an assumption that we made. I see Donald D and I see Donald Draper, but we don't know if Donald D is Donald Draper at all.

Maybe we're talking to Donald duck. Maybe this is the third identity.

[00:14:32] Jonathan Friedman: That's a plot twist. If I ever heard one, can you imagine like, like, you know, it's, it's after Christmas now, Scrooge, you know, can go back to bed now that he's happy with Christmas again, for, until next year? And then Donald Duck is just like going on his way.

And he's like, what if I was Dick Whitman? What if I was Donald Draper? However, Donald Duck would say that he was like a *Donald Duck's inaudible words* voice.

[00:14:57] Jon Rom: Wait, do you, do you think that, do you think that a Christmas Carol is an iterative story about an old man who gets salty every single year about Christmas and is asked to learn the meaning of Christmas every single time?

[00:15:10] Jonathan Friedman: That's pretty much what it's been, right? I mean, I'm 28 years old, 28 and a half. And every single year, we tell the story of Scrooge McDuck and that doesn't work. It doesn't, Duck does not fall far from the Creek. Don't throw ducks. That's not what I'm trying to say, but every single

[00:15:31] Jon Rom: don't duck down don't throw ducks, people.

[00:15:33] Jonathan Friedman: Don't do it.

Don't do it.

[00:15:37] Jon Rom: Don't start. Don't throw ducks and foul house.

That has to be a teacher.

[00:15:40] Jonathan Friedman: Song by Billy Joel. Is it on?

[00:15:43] Jon Rom: Oh yeah, that's true. That's true. You're right. All right. So, so what do you want to ask Donald D and we're not going to assume that it's, you know, Donald Draper, but lets for argument's sake.

What would you like to ask Donald?

[00:15:57] Jonathan Friedman: So for me, I want to know three different things. And I'm just going to rattle them off quickly because I think these, this is really what's been on my mind. One it's what is it about the lifestyle of Donald Draper that Donald likes? What stresses Donald out about the rat race?

If there's any stress at all. And probably the most important question for me is what does not being at peace feel like? What would feeling at peace looks like, and that's really what I want. So for me, the reason I'm asking those three questions is the first two are kind of explorative questions and a bit more, you know, warming up to the matter at hand.

And that third question, what does not being at peace feel like? Is really that, uh, that one, two punch I want to throw here.

[00:16:50] Jon Rom: It's a really good one. It's you know, at the end of the day, someone brings up ice cream in their journal. You got to ask them about the flavors. Everyone. Everyone says ice cream and pictures of different flavors in their mind because we all have different life experiences.

[00:17:05] Jonathan Friedman: What flavor do you think of?

[00:17:06] Jon Rom: Thank you for asking I'm so, and, and, and it's that, and it's that chemistry that establishes our dynamic because I, of course, I'm going, you know what more fun. What do you think I'm going to say?

[00:17:20] Jonathan Friedman: What's your favorite ice cream flavor? What do you picture when you hear ice cream?

I think you're one of those people who are appre... here's exactly what it is. When you picture ice cream, you think of what the perfect French vanilla is, because if you can get the perfect French vanilla, you know, that all the other flavors are going to be good too.

[00:17:41] Jon Rom: Wow. I'm actually, I'm a little shocked that you got that right.

I wasn't expecting you. I thought you were going to say like mint chocolate chip and, and throw down the gauntlet expecting.

[00:17:52] Jonathan Friedman: Nobody likes mint chocolate.

[00:17:54] Jon Rom: Oh, whoa, hold on, hold on.

Back it up reverses. See, I've buried myself here because if you ask me to guess your favorite flavor, uh, I can just say no uh, peanut-related one. After all, you're allergic to those and not a banana and not fish. So those three flavors are out. Uh, golly is your favorite flavor?

Uh, chocolate chip cookie dough?

[00:18:29] Jonathan Friedman: That is one of my favorite flavors.

[00:18:30] Jon Rom: Crushed it.

[00:18:31] Jonathan Friedman: So for me. Whenever I think about ice cream, I'm thinking about either chocolate chip, cookie dough, or cheesecake E ice cream, like the chunks of cheesecake that makes me happy. I may even be thinking about it now I'm beaming.

[00:18:47] Jon Rom: I would do terrible things for ice cream at this very moment. I'm right there with you. The, um, but the, but the point is, is that, what was the point? The point is, is that ice cream? Uh, these little, these little vagaries that we find in the post, we have to dig into them because sometimes it all hinges on the definition of a word.

And I love that you asked him what not being at peace feels like because it's a different thing for different people.

[00:19:17] Jonathan Friedman: When people picture ice cream to themselves, everybody thinks of a different flavor and peace to different people looks very different and. I mean, we can probably take a fair guest to say that peace for Donald D would be understanding that either that balance of Dick Whitman and Donald Draper or understanding, you know, like reconciling the past, or it could be a bunch of different things, but it's really important for us here as coaches, just to ask that question because we want to not lead, but we want to help Donald get to that. Because we, that, that's the piece where identifying that we need to know to help this client move to the next point.

So if you're cool with it, uh, Jon, I'm going to go ahead and send these questions over to Donald, but I'm also going to send and ask what Donald's favorite ice cream is 'cause I think that's, that's probably the most important question here.

[00:20:21] Jon Rom: Yeah, that's the most important thing to do. And all of your responses when you're a coach are to add nonsequiturs into your question asking because if nothing resonates with them, then you just have a very pleasant conversation about ice cream and you can infer everything you want from that.

[00:20:40] Jonathan Friedman: What do you think the Sasquatch's favorite flavor of ice cream is?

[00:20:44] Jon Rom: Don't you don't, you bring him into this thing. You bring him into this. Do you know how many solid goofs are gone because of, because of his, his ill-gotten gains 'cause if it's nug thievery a Baker's dozen, at least?

[00:21:00] Jonathan Friedman: at least a Baker's dozen of spicy nugs, goofy goofs.

[00:21:06] Jon Rom: Well, the joke's on him. I'm not making more goose. I'm going to make the same goose that I made last time. And if they don't, if they don't land, cause they're stale now, you know, on his head, be it.

[00:21:16] Jonathan Friedman: Take that, Sasquatch.

[00:21:22] Jon Rom: This entire, this entire podcast is just going to be us creating t-shirtable.

[00:21:35] Jonathan Friedman: Lines.

Take that, Sasquatch

[00:21:37] Jon Rom: Take that, Sasquatch. Upwards and squared words. I like that.

Yeah. I think, I think that you're, uh, you're going to end up making us very quotable by, uh, by episode 50, for sure.

[00:21:50] Jonathan Friedman: That's the goal by episode 50 will be likable.

[00:21:53] Jon Rom: Which is what I told myself when I started high school.

[00:21:57] Jonathan Friedman: By episode, what's episode 50 in terms of high schoolers?

[00:22:02] Jon Rom: Uh, you know, Hm. Episode 50. I feel like I was at 50 is about like the second half of grade 10, where you should be at this point like mostly figuring out who you want to be for at least the duration of high school. And now you just have to turn it into a likable version of yourself and then it all falls apart by episode 52.

[00:22:25] Jonathan Friedman: Damn.

[00:22:31] Jon Rom: All right. So, Jonathan, we're back in a big, big way. We've, uh, some time has passed or sometimes did pass when we first recorded this. And now we, uh, we have a response hopefully too, to our questions that we asked in the, for the follow... for the original post.

[00:22:49] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. So just as a, as a, as a reminder to all of our listeners.

Blah, blah blah. Just as a reminder to all of our listeners out there, the main question we wanted to get to was what does not being at peace feels like for Donald Draper / Dick Whitman? And what would feel at peace look like to that person? This is Donald these journals reply to that question.

The piece is that moment where you breathe and don't feel like the past is holding your feet down while you try to run away.

But maybe that tells me something. Maybe there is something to Dick Whitman being someone who can just be and reading that journal three, sorry, John, where we're right now. We're talking at the same time.

[00:23:31] Jon Rom: I just want it to snap. I just want it to snap. I'm just snapping. It was just, it was just, it was just a good one.

It was good, it was pithy. I liked it. Go ahead.

[00:23:41] Jonathan Friedman: What's interesting. Is the previous journal was long. There was a lot of description. There was a lot of fluff in that sandwich, that sandwich. But in this one, it's kind of just two sentences: pieces that move when,re you breathe and don't feel like the past is, holding down your feet while you try to run away.

And the second one, which is maybe there's being there is maybe there is something to being Dick Whitman, being someone who can just be, and for me right away, it tells me that we asked the right question and it also tells me that Donald D it's not a post to dictate when there was no problem necessarily with this, I'm going to assume a past character because, for that character, he was someone who could just feel at peace.

Whereas Donald Draper is not a character who can feel at peace. And to me, even though this is short, I think the emotion is conveyed nicely and that emotion is that longing for that person who may be Donald D used to be, what do you think, Jon?

[00:24:55] Jon Rom: I'm going to resurrect Jimmy Cool Jazz. And I'm going to resurrect Jimmy Cool Jazz because the listeners don't know who Jimmy Cool Jazz is, but Jimmy cool Jazz is, is a question I asked you the first time we recorded this, and uh, I wanted to help identify what beliefs, uh, our friend Donald D might have. My question for you, Jonathan, is let's say your Jim your now Jimmy cool Jazz. Jonathan is a thing of the past. You were living your new life on the mean streets of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

And I have to ask in this, in this new life as Jimmy Cool Jazz, what would your chief concern be? What, what, how would you be regarding your past? What would you feel about it? What would you be trying to do about it, and do you think you feel negative?

[00:25:53] Jonathan Friedman: If I were Jimmy Cool Jazz and Jonathan Friedman was a thing of the past?

[00:25:58] Jon Rom: You're James -Elizabeth Cool Jazz.

[00:26:03] Jonathan Friedman: Hyphenated first name, no middle name.

[00:26:05] Jon Rom: Yeah, but you go by Jimmy, um, on the, on the mean streets of Toronto.

[00:26:09] Jonathan Friedman: But it's like Jim E period. Like he is my second initial, but there's no actual second initial.

[00:26:15] Jon Rom: Yeah. Oh, that's clever. I didn't even do that on purpose. Yeah. Jim E gear Jim E Cool Jazz.

Exactly.

[00:26:23] Jonathan Friedman: You're too good subconsciously. I think if I was Jimmy Cool Jazz and uh, you know, Jonathan Friedman was the thing of the past. I'd be... you know, every night I'd be playing shows at jazz bars, I'd be playing the upright bass faith bass that list I have is brutal here. I'd be playing the upright bass, um, at jazz clubs all around, you know, Toronto, maybe extend to other parts of Ontario. If they listen to jazz, I hope they do.

And you know, I'd be doing the dab it up, up, up, up, up, up, up, upon the base every single day. Um, But I think the inherent issue with having, you know, this CIA coverup detective coverup character, is that you never actually deal with the past. There's kind of like this bandaid solution in a way, like for people who are just out of nowhere bringing in this new character, this new persona, moving to a new country, and being the cool guy, Jimmy Cool Jazz. There's nothing cooler than that. Making transitions in our character as we grow up is important, but I don't think Jim = Jazz reconciled his past as Jonathan Friedman.

And that's, that's where I think I'd be running into a brick wall over and over. Maybe that's what happened last week. Maybe that's why the Sasquatch took this episode. Maybe there was some unfinished business. Maybe the Sasquatch was smart.

[00:27:59] Jon Rom: Yeah.

It's you know, if, if we identify the belief here as the past is unable to hold you down while you run away.

Well, I would, I would challenge that belief by saying, you know, you can try to run away from yourself, but wherever you go, there you are. It's a, there's a term for that topology syllogism?

[00:28:25] Jonathan Friedman: I don't know.

[00:28:26] Jon Rom: But the, the point is, is that, uh, maybe, we're identifying the underlying motivations of our Jimmy Cool Jazz, but w w w he, he is faced with an impossible task because how do you get away from all of the experiences that made you, who you are today? How, how does Jimmy Cool Jazz reconcile the fact that without Jonathan Friedman, he would be, you know, nobody, he wouldn't be where he is.

[00:28:59] Jonathan Friedman: And I think that kind of goes back to Donald's first journal, which is that it feels like he's somebody he's not at peace with that somebody and, to sort of taking the past out of the person is not possible. There's this, um, album by death cab for cutie, which is, uh, an indie band that's been around for a long time, Kintsugi, and Kintsugi is the Japanese art of taking broken items, covering them in resin. So you still see the cracks it's put together.

And these are like priceless artifacts. I think the concept of Kintsugi is cool, especially in coaching because a lot of us try and like, you know, move on without dealing with the past, but the past then the cracks and all of that, that is part of our story. And that's what makes us stronger. And, you know, utilizing resources like coaching or utilizing like journaling, like therapy, like, like all of the stuff is kind of that resin, which kind of help bring us forward to this new story.

But I don't think like in this case, Donald Draper needs to exist without Dick Whitman. They don't need to be separate, but I do think it's important above all else that the piece that Donald D is searching for is found. And for me, and this is kind of the, what I'd want to get to whether it's Jimmy Cool Jazz or whether it's Donald D is what would it look like for Donald D to just be?

And that rhymes because I am Jimmy Cool Jazz. Snap, snap,

[00:30:36] Jon Rom: snap, snapping.

[00:30:37] Jonathan Friedman: What would it look like in the morning, the afternoon, the evening? Where would they live? But they live by themselves? Would they live with a partner? Would they live as Donald Draper or Dick Whitman? What would that serenity be? What would that finally, not only being a peace with the world but being at peace with themselves look like?

[00:30:57] Jon Rom: I think that's excellent because you're easing into, into, um, challenging the belief. Because there's a lot of the story that we don't know here and you're going to have, um, a lot of time to kind of unpack this with, uh, with your coachee, but establishing what the underlying. Um, a dream is here is, is I think, I think it's worth wild and, and you, you put it perfectly.

You're going to, you're going to need to understand what it means to just live your life and feel like there is a balance between Donald Draper and Dick Whitman. Uh, between Jonathan and Jimmy. Cool Jazz.

[00:31:47] Jonathan Friedman: Jimmy Cool Jazz is, is, is the modern Kintsugi. Do you know what I mean?

[00:31:51] Jon Rom: Yeah. You're going to, you're going to have to show Donald the cracks in resin and it's not going to be something you just do overnight.

Uh, but this, this, this, this is an excellent start. It's very gentle. What a gentle, what a gentle yet, yet, uh, firm approach you have. Uh, unlike.

[00:32:10] Jonathan Friedman: Unlike the Sasquatch who is not gentle, not firm, just mean just plain mean.

[00:32:17] Jon Rom: If we can assume positive intent. I think the, uh, the Sasquatch is lonely from, from years of, uh, being misidentified.

Being, uh, chased away, undoubtedly and, and maybe, maybe he's resorted or she has resorted to a life of nug stealing because they've given up on, on ever making a real connection.

I don't know.

[00:32:52] Jonathan Friedman: Are you saying that in the, in, in this case where Javier and the Sasquatch are Sean Bell?

[00:32:57] Jon Rom: I think I've come around on the Sasquatch throughout this episode.

I, I know that he stole our last recording and ruined it and left it, um, in tatters, but from, it has arisen a new episode where I made all the same jokes. And, uh, recreated my nugs from scratch and you've wonderfully coached this person, uh, and, and reflected it in this episode. Uh, and, and I love to hear how, uh, uh, Donald Draper, Dick Whitman in response to your questions.

[00:33:36] Jonathan Friedman: Risen like a loaf of bread.

All right. So I'm going to go ahead and send those questions off and, uh, we'll circle back shortly and, uh, see what the heck is up.

So, Jon, we just got another journal from our good pal, Donald D over here. Which is great. I'm not going to insert another Sasquatch joke because the Sasquatch could be a good, a good thing. And I need to stop assuming the negative in those Abominable mobile bubble things. Do you know what I mean? And I need to be better.

I need to be.

[00:34:24] Jon Rom: We don't call anything else abominable, did you ever, did you think of that? Like nothing else is called abominable. I think people use that word exactly one time and said, oh, that's never happening again.

[00:34:38] Jonathan Friedman: And it was just written in one script that Bugs Bunny and then they're like, all right, cool.

Like, let's stick to other creatures that we see never, except for one person who's seen them.

[00:34:46] Jon Rom: I mean, it's also, it's also what an insult. What an insult to throw at someone, an abominable, an abominable.

[00:34:52] Jonathan Friedman: There's I'm struggling to think of a situation where you would use the word...

[00:34:59] Jon Rom: If you're a Marine biologist.

[00:35:01] Jonathan Friedman: Oh yeah.

[00:35:01] Jon Rom: You forgot.

You forgot about Marine biologists again. Didn't ya?

[00:35:08] Jonathan Friedman: It's like almost every time we hop on this podcast, like,

[00:35:12] Jon Rom: and you forget the Marine biology.

I forget everything I've ever learned about coaching. It's good, we're a good pair you and me.

[00:35:19] Jonathan Friedman: All right. So we have this journal from Donald D um, I think we'll go with this one and then we'll, uh, follow up in the future because I think there's still lots of uncovering, but uh, I'm going to go ahead and give this a read.

I feel like I should be a little more mysterious on this one. Go a bit lower.

[00:35:36] Jon Rom: Yeah. You want me to, do you want me to make ocean sounds in the background while you do this? Or do you want absolute silence?

[00:35:42] Jonathan Friedman: I demand absolute silence.

[00:35:47] Jon Rom: Which is bad, which is bad radio, but okay.

[00:35:50] Jonathan Friedman: Fair enough. I would be on a beach.

The sky would be as endless as the sea. And even though they are parallel, it would look like they are touching. That's how blue the sky and the water are. I would hang up my suit and wear something comfortable because I want to be. Let's swim every single day and just think that's what my piece would be.

That is what I want more than anything. Thank you for the silence, Jon, Jonald.

[00:36:16] Jon Rom: You're so welcome. I, I fell into a deep, uh, Zen, can you fall into a Zen? I fell into a Zen when you read that because I was transported to my hat, to my peaceful place, which is the, which is tub. Uh, filled with bubbles and a rubber duck.

And I thought to myself, I would do this every day and just think if I wasn't certain that my water bill would destroy me financially in a way that I would never recover but the what a, what? A, an image. What a writer, man. I hope, I hope I hope Donald Donald D wants to be, uh, uh, coached on the podcast again.

'Cause I just, I love, I love the imagery that he, uh, he, he conjures up.

[00:37:10] Jonathan Friedman: And and what a conjuring it is. I'm wondering Jon, as, as a coach yourself, where, where do you go from here? So we're kind of starting to identify that Donald feels at peace, maybe on a beach, maybe a place where he can be active, be a bit removed from, you know, the rat race of Madison Avenue, being comfortable, all of these different things, which are very different.

And you know, it doesn't even talk about Dick Whitman. It doesn't even talk about Donald Draper. It just talks about being a person and being in a state of relaxation and choice. So, reading this journal for the future, like where, where do you go? What direction do we take this?

[00:37:57] Jon Rom: It's my observation that one of the most common themes in our coaching is to have people recognize that freedom and peace and tranquility are our states of mind.

They're not places that you go to. They are not uh, uh, shirts that you put on it's, it is a state of mind that you get to by, uh, addressing the the the difficulties and challenges and, um, overcoming those, those things to get to a place where you feel comfortable with yourself and how your life is going and how things are going.

And, I think what I would do in, in your shoes as his coach is to get to that place where underneath the desire to be Dick Whitman lies a direction that Donald D wants to go in. I think that all Jonathans become Jimmy Cool Jazz because they were, there was something that they were chasing, and the first step to unpacking why things aren't necessarily going super well as Jimmy Cool Jazz is to identify why you became Jimmy Cool Jazz in the first place.

Are those reasons still relevant? Have you attained the thing you were after or did you just get caught up in playing the bass or bass and you are stuck in the trappings of this character that you've created?

[00:39:40] Jonathan Friedman: I think that's, I think that's interesting. And, I think one more thing to sort of extending that is um, if we're in a state of not peace and we're not feeling easy, maybe we're feeling a bit of anxiety, especially if we have two different people roaming around our minds all the time it's can be difficult to reconcile the past.

And if we have a client who is sort of describing what peace looks like, I want to bring them there way before I started unraveling the past. That's much more important to me. I want people to feel like my clients to feel good. And part of that can be unraveling the past, but part of that can be bringing them to that place of peace first.

And then sort of going back to the past later, just because, you know, this journal happened now and the previous journals happened before, I can always, as a coach sort of going back, circle back, you know, quote Donald and then start a new conversation. And that's what I would do here. I would focus on that piece and sort of circle back to that other stuff.

So for me, moving forward in the future. My next question, to him, is going to be, you know, how do we, how do we get you from Madison avenue to that beach? That's what I want to do.

[00:40:52] Jon Rom: That's interesting. I, I, what I, what I, what I love about that as a, you've taken the strength of the fact that it is a journey. And so, all the previous entries exist and it's, and it's all written down so that you can reference ideas and thoughts and feelings that occurred on a different day.

Because one of the things, one of the things we haven't clarified is do we oscillate between Donald Draper and Dick Whitman, depending on if it's a Tuesday or Wednesday? You know, what, what, when one of them say might not feel relevant to the other persona. And it all just depends on what's going on in that person's life.

I think we all oscillate between different versions of ourselves and the fact that you can reference the thoughts and feelings of the past version is, is super powerful. I love that.

[00:41:37] Jonathan Friedman: Heck yeah. And one last thing is that just because in one journal, one thing is mentioned or another journal. When another thing is mentioned, you're not going to solve everything or be able to challenge everything.

Or dig into all of the misery in one journal, it's really important to sort of break it up and go reference and other times. And that's what makes journaling powerful is that its sort of an endless conversation. Like you can reference something that's already there, as opposed to trying to recall a conversation in our brains.

It's not always feasible in the same way. So, I'm excited to sort of see. Uh, what we can do with Donald, uh, you know, in the coming weeks, months, and hopefully years together. And, uh, yeah. Thanks for listening to that. I appreciate it. And thank you Sasquatch for not jumping in through my window in a, in a, in a hairy blizzard.

[00:42:32] Jon Rom: Uh, we've learned, we've learned to connect to our alter egos.

We've learned to connect to ourselves. We've learned to connect to Sasquatch. And if, if, if we've learned anything today, Uh, like, like the end of a, of an afterschool special. I think what we all, I think the lesson we learned today was that, um, the Donald Duck was inside us all along.

[00:42:57] Jonathan Friedman: And that Scrooge will never learn.

[00:43:01] Jon Rom: That's Scrooge will never learn. And also, relearn the same lesson annually, which is a wild, wild way to live.

[00:43:11] Jonathan Friedman: I think he needs coaching.

[00:43:14] Jon Rom: Yeah, maybe, he just needs to be told that, uh, if you just keep, if you just keep the good times rolling next Christmas, you don't have to be visited by several ghosts.

What a, what a time suck that must be.

[00:43:30] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. I don't imagine it's fun. He seems distressed every single year when I watched the movie. So, it's like at what point, Scrooge do you, do you sort of, you know, pick yourself up by your jim-jams and say, okay, you know, like it's enough already time to just enjoy the holidays now, like, hang out with my like three nephews whose names I forget.

And, you know, just have, you know, like a roast beast, a Turkey, a ham, definitely not duck because that, that, that would be too wild for those scenarios.

[00:44:03] Jon Rom: We may, we may be forgetting about the concussive trauma of jumping into a pile of money.

[00:44:08] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah, there's a lot. We should do an episode. We should reach out to Scrooge and see if he'd be open to doing an episode with us.

[00:44:16] Jon Rom: Well, get him on the journal. That's what it's for.

[00:44:19] Jonathan Friedman: I'll reach out this week. I wonder if he has LinkedIn.

[00:44:24] Jon Rom: Yeah.

[00:44:26] Jonathan Friedman: So we're going to sidestep from Scrooge from the Sasquatch and Donald D and a hop into a listener. Uh, we have one here from Gabrielle and Jon, I'm wondering if you are ready for this question.

[00:44:43] Jon Rom: So I always say yes. So I'm going to say no, I'm not ready. And I'm going to do an exercise. Hold on. We're going to do an exercise for just a second.

Alright. I am, I am ready.

[00:44:59] Jonathan Friedman: That's all it took.

[00:45:00] Jon Rom: That's all it takes. Sometimes you just have to let the evil out

[00:45:03] Jonathan Friedman: *letting the evil out*

[00:45:05] Jon Rom: yeah,

[00:45:09] Jonathan Friedman: that felt good. I feel that that was good. Nice. All right. So now that we feel good, we have this question from Gabrielle and her question is as follows. Is it normal to dread going to work every day? And how do you pick yourself up from that? And Gabrielle, thank you for this question. I think it's wonderful.

And I think we talk about this a lot on the show, but as things start to transition and things start to move, I think lots of people are dreading lots of different things for a lot of different reasons. And I think, and Jon, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's perfectly normal to dread going to work.

But for me, I want to understand what, what, where that dread is coming from? Is it coming from, I hate my job? I don't like the schedule of work? Or does it relate to transitions? And does it relate to, you know, maybe some mundane pieces of it? Like what's the function of the dread,

[00:46:07] Jon Rom: this is such, this is such a hard question to answer.

And I think, I think the reason is that it's so layered. Um, I remember being told as a, as a younging, that if you're going to do something, you should do something you love so that it never feels like work. And then, uh, I remember, you know, working one of the cooler jobs I ever had working in a guitar store, um, and that straight up felt like work, love guitars.

Don't I even like selling them still felt like work still felt like I was on the clock and that I couldn't leave, uh, if, uh, even if I wanted to. So, feeling dread though, not wanting to work that's one thing feeling dread is, is a, is a sign. Feeling dread is your body, is your body telling you something?

It's, it's not, it's not, uh, a natural part of working. It's a natural part of being, um, very antagonistic towards the rest of your day. The what the, what the day looks like ahead. Um, and, and I think that I think that if someone dreads, what they do, it's not just a matter of, they don't want to work.

I think it's a matter of, there's a disconnect between what they want to be doing with their time in the grand philosophical sense and what they're doing. Um, I don't know, Jonathan, have you ever had a job that you dreaded going to work in?

[00:47:47] Jonathan Friedman: So, a lot of people don't know this, but I've had, I haven't always been a coach.

Haven't always been a youth worker. I've had many different types of jobs. I've been a roadie. I worked at a Starbucks I've I I've, I've been like a bus captain. I've been a camp counselor. I've done weekly jazz residencies. I've done all sorts of, and that's only like, uh, oh, and Wonderland. Just like a theme park here in Canada, I've done all sorts of different things.

And for me, there were a lot of them that I honestly did dread because a lot of them crashed against my values. So for me, like I like being able to do my own thing and be independent. And I like being able to see my vision out. And I like being able to sort of choose my schedule and work with people in like a healthy way.

And I want to be able to do some good work for the world and a few of the jobs that I've had. And I won't name them because I don't, I don't want to be like that right now. Not like you, Sasquatch, but I want to um, like I found that those jobs clashed with my values and, you know, like "Hey, you're going to work 12 hours"

uh, buckling people up on a ride all day, not naming names at all.

[00:49:18] Jon Rom: Yeah. What about, what job could that possibly be? Was it the jazz residency?

[00:49:22] Jonathan Friedman: It was the jazz residence but a man like that, that job was terrible. And I remember I had supervisors who like made us clock out so we could clean late and I'd have 12 or 13-hour shifts.

Like I'm sure things have changed but man, like those sort of repetitive tasks for me, just, it doesn't work. Um, it's just painful. So, uh, and to be honest, the lack of like, of like for sort of operational or repetitive tasks, um, is, is very much a big thing for me, even now as a business owner. And for me, it's always about putting myself in a place where, you know, maybe there's a couple of things in my day that I don't prefer.

But the majority of my days, getting to have that positive impact and getting to be that weird goofy person who coaches Scrooge McDuck on a podcast, right?

[00:50:17] Jon Rom: That would you say that the negative experience that dread taught you something about yourself?

[00:50:22] Jonathan Friedman: I think there's this idea of contrast. And when we experienced something that we don't like, it helps bring us to the thing that we do like a lot more. And, all of those different jobs that I've had and the amount of time that I was working at those jobs or the different kinds of people I worked with at those jobs helped me to realize, you know, what do I want in a team? What do I want in the people that I surround myself and how do I want my data to look? And do I want to be doing repetitive things?

Do I want people yelling at me that I'm not organized? Or do I want to be in a job that I'm, you know, treasure for making weird, silly decisions? And getting to do creative things and getting to try new things and getting to talk to new people, getting to offer to coach. And for me, that's, that's the magic.

And because of those jobs that I used to have, I realized now that I love what I do. It's not, um, it's not, I don't look at those things as a mistake. And for anybody feeling, um, dread like that guy dreadful, um, I do think that it's important to look at the things that you don't like take out your journal, write it all down, everything you don't like, it could be, you know, talking about your boss.

It could be talking about maybe there's like a mundane piece of your day. It could be talking about the job itself, writing down all the things, dump it all out onto the journal. And then think about like, what would your ideal day, in this case, as Gabrielle look like, would it include, you know, a yoga break during the day?

Would it include time to walk around and think about a big idea? Would it include, you know, designing software? Would it include having meetings with, you know, young professionals, to do recruitment and things like that? What would the ideal day include? And I think after noticing the things that suck, the things that you do like will feel a lot like you'll feel a lot more um, connected with the things that you do like.

[00:52:29] Jon Rom: Yeah, dread. It can be a good identifier of what is the suck that you need to eliminate from your day. Um, and if the whole job is full of suckiness, Then I got good news and I got bad news. The good news is, uh, you know what you gotta do. The bad news is it's going to take a little bit of journaling to work up the courage, to find something that doesn't make him miserable.

[00:52:56] Jonathan Friedman: Work of your courage like that dog. Right?

[00:53:00] Jon Rom: I don't know your dogs, dogs, dogs don't have courage because dogs...

[00:53:03] Jonathan Friedman: Isn't there that there isn't there a dog named Courage. Isn't that a thing? Courage the cowardly dog? Isn't that a thing?

[00:53:10] Jon Rom: And every time you referenced a character on our show, it means that we can not have them on the podcast.

[00:53:19] Jonathan Friedman: Really? Why not?

[00:53:21] Jon Rom: Yeah, of course, because we've already acknowledged that they're fictional.

How would you say, like don't remove the illusion, the prestige? Better question. How does a dog type?

[00:53:34] Jonathan Friedman: That's the question you have about that's where you draw the line and say like where's the reality?

[00:53:39] Jon Rom: That's right, John. There's one thing I know about our show is for people to come for believability.

And, um, references to cryptozoology.

[00:53:50] Jonathan Friedman: All right, there are these two Jonathons, they're coaches and they just get right to the point. There's no failure, right? Yeah.

[00:53:54] Jon Rom: There's no fluff. They've never made it, they've never said anything that wasn't completely coherent and relevant to this, to what they were talking about it.

[00:54:02] Jonathan Friedman: These guys just do an incredible job and if you think that we do such an incredible.

[00:54:10] Jon Rom: Yeah. Good,

good. Well.

[00:54:12] Jonathan Friedman: That was a good segue.

[00:54:13] Jon Rom: That was great. No, we'll

leave it in. Leave it, leave it. I'd never edit out it

[00:54:18] Jonathan Friedman: I wasn't planning on it. And if you, again, we're back to where I was. If you think that we are doing a fantabulous job.

Uh, you can feel free to let us know that at Jonathanz@thejournalthattalksback.com, you can also feel free just like Gabrielle did. Feel free to share your questions with us, for us to answer live on the air. And hopefully, the Sasquatch won't seal them. And Jon, uh, where can people find us?

[00:54:50] Jon Rom: Uh, you can find us on a, your Facebook, your Instagram's your, uh, your, my space's, your, uh, your lunar storms, your life not your, uh, your Kik, your jubilations you know, all the, all the not defunct social media services. And, and you know where else you can find us? You can find us on the services where you rate us and you can give us five stars.

Um, and if you don't give us five stars, then my new friends Sasquatch will eat your spicy nuts

Character coaching is a production of The Journal That Talks Back. A product at Frame Of Mind Coaching. To get accessible coaching for just $200 a month, book a free intake call at thejournalthattalksback.com.

Our music is The swindler by The Original Orchestra featuring Ian Post. Our editing is done by one of the Jonathans on the show, which one? We'll never tell.


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