[00:00:00] Jon Rom: Character Coaching is an exploration of coaching principles applied to fictional characters by the host. Any likeness to real people or situations is coincidental. And none of the advice given is intended to take the place of real coaching. Learn more about getting accessible coaching at thejournalthattalksback.com.
[00:00:21] Jonathan Friedman: I'm Jonathan
[00:00:22] Jon Rom: and I'm Jon and, and this is Character Coaching ching ching ching.
Jonathan, Jonathan. I managed to catch a cold at the, uh, at the beginning of the week and it pretty much took me outta commission. And I feel like getting a cold during COVID is kind of just like, you know, you're not even good enough for COVID like, COVID was just like, nah, I'll probably kill this idiot.
I'm going to go straight. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go over this way, this head. And then the cold comes by and it's just like, yeah, you seem nice. You seem like the right person for this.
[00:01:11] Jonathan Friedman: You, you seem like a reasonable individual.
Yeah. You seem let's work together. Let's let's coldaborate.
[00:01:17] Jon Rom: Coldaborate. Well, I Coldaborated through fricking three tissue boxes and 700 Benadryl completes.
So I feel like, I feel like I've, I've definitely did my end of the heavy lifting.
[00:01:37] Jonathan Friedman: For sure. I it's interesting. I think before COVID I, I was working pretty much in, in, in a school. You know, if anybody has a cold and they're sneezing everywhere, you know, you have the occasional person who says you that's gross, but everyone's just like, oh yeah, it's just a cold, we'll get over it.
It'll pass through. And that's it. But now that COVID has happened, you let out the slightest like let achu in a subway or anywhere. And everyone's like holding their children close, like fighting for their lives. Like nobody wants to be like the whole perception about even just the common cold is now different.
[00:02:15] Jon Rom: Yeah, Jonathan, but that's also because you used to go up behind people's, uh, uh, uh, ears during, uh, during cold and flu season and just whisper a chew into their ears softly. So I think that might have had something to do with it.
[00:02:32] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah, me. Yeah. Jonathan Friedman chaotic evil. A hundred percent. That's, that's exactly what I used to do. I, I did that to you on many occasions, too.
[00:02:40] Jon Rom: Yeah. Although you did make me a lot more conscious about the spread of germs, so maybe chaotic, neutral.
[00:02:46] Jonathan Friedman: I'm glad I cut. That's pretty good. Yeah. I, I, I don't know. I don't get where, where did the chaotic neutral, chaotic good thing come from.
[00:02:56] Jon Rom: Oh, from, uh, Dungeons and dragons. It's in an alignment chart where you, uh, you define not only what kind of, uh, Direction, are you going in terms good evil or just doing things for the sake of doing things, uh, for yourself, uh, but also how you do it, you know, do you, do you, uh, blow up buildings or do you, uh, raise interest rates slowly but surely throughout a global pandemic until the, uh, until you can no longer afford, uh, to live.
[00:03:34] Jonathan Friedman: So in Dungeons and dragons, do people get to create their character and choose how they are aligned on that chart? Or is it just, uh, a symptom of the quest?
[00:03:45] Jon Rom: So people, people will give you a heads up like, oh, I'm gonna play a character that is chaotic neutral, where they're just gonna do kind of wild things, but it'll be more for the sake of their own.
Their ending is particularly good, nothing particularly evil about what they're doing. Um, and then over throughout the game, you might notice that that person has, has developed a character that's a little bit different than what they originally expected to play. And they might, you know, acknowledge that they become they hey hathe they haveer has grown into more, uh, uh, uh, lawful neutral maybe, or, or chaotic good or something like that.
[00:04:26] Jonathan Friedman: There's character development inside of Dungeons and dragons games. And I, I'm not judging. I just really have no clue. So I'm asking.
[00:04:35] Jon Rom: I mean, there's, there's character development in life, right? You just, grow as a person, and maybe when you're playing your character and you're saving, uh, the princess. And you're giving up the gold. Maybe you decide to give, to save a little bit of gold for the orphans, which is not something your character would've done in the past, but the orphan character spoke to you. And you wanted to embody that within your character's, uh, your character's decisions
[00:05:05] Jonathan Friedman: and do those decisions carry on, like in the next game, are you still that character or do you have a new character request?
[00:05:14] Jon Rom: So people will often play the same character through a bunch of campaigns, but some people like to, uh, play a full campaign and then, uh, shut the whole thing down and start a new and develop a new character. And they might take some of the lessons that they learned from playing the last character into the new one.
Um, uh, I haven't played too much of D and D myself. Although I listen to many D and D podcasts and.
[00:05:40] Jonathan Friedman: Not surprised.
[00:05:41] Jon Rom: Yeah. Not surprising at all. Um, but, the podcast I listen to, they often restart every season, but it's usually for the best because even, even the best characters will get stale after a while
[00:05:53] Jonathan Friedman: So it's, it's not a podcast talking about D and D. It's a podcast where there's like podcast streaming their D and D game.
[00:06:01] Jon Rom: Yep. It's called an actual play podcast and, uh,
[00:06:04] Jonathan Friedman: damn, that's cool.
[00:06:05] Jon Rom: It's uh, it sounds like we're gonna end up doing that as a. As some sort of bonus episode, uh, because I imagine people listening to this are gonna be like these two guys should, uh, be forced to try to solve a dungeon.
[00:06:23] Jonathan Friedman: I mean, I'm down. I don't think I'd be any good at it. I don't know how I would solve. I, it I guess I've never played, so I don't know. Do you feel like I'd be a dungeon and dragons person, a D and D person, do you think I'd be able to hold the 20-sided die in my hand and just control the world?
[00:06:40] Jon Rom: I think, I think you have them, that you can embody a character if you really put your o it, I think you'd have to completely throw yourself into it. In character voices, you'd have to have a backstory. I think if you really threw yourself into it and then did everything you could to think about how that character would react to the situation after about an hour, you'd be completely immersed.
[00:07:04] Jonathan Friedman: Oh, well. I, uh, got a journal from somebody recently. That sounds like he embodies, uh, a certain character, um, segue alert. Um, Jon, do you think, uh,
[00:07:18] Jon Rom: well, was that a se, is that a segue? I hear.
[00:07:20] Jonathan Friedman: Segueway alert. Um, I, I don't know where that came from might have been, a different character.
Um, but, uh, we do have a new journal and it's, uh, From one Walter W and, uh, Jon with your, uh, at your behest, I'd like to give it a, give it a read.
[00:07:38] Jon Rom: Is it, is it Walt Whisney?
[00:07:42] Jonathan Friedman: I, I, I thought that guy was, uh, was cryogenically frozen, uh, to bring them to the future. Is that a, is that a different, I, I don't know if that's them, but it'd be cool.
If you could write journals from a cryogenic state.
[00:07:56] Jon Rom: When you wish upon a drug. Does it matter who you hug?
[00:08:05] Jonathan Friedman: Uh, you just make that up or you stole that from like a, a Pfizer commercial
[00:08:10] Jon Rom: that was off the dome, but Pfizer hit me up if you, uh, if you need a new commercial.
[00:08:14] Jonathan Friedman: The, the true you. Oh, God. Um, I'm gonna just sniffle quickly.
And then I'm gonna go ahead and, uh, give this journal a read that good sniff. We have the journal from Walt W:
Whenn I found out that I had cancer, I knew that what I wanted was to provide for my family to give them a life, to give Walt Jr a future. And I threw it all away. When I gave up my stake in gray matter for $5,000, my birthright for a month's worth of rent.
Imagine that. So today I turn to the one thing I am good at to make that future, to make that life happen. I turn to Chemistry. Mean that Pinkman kid started small, but when that money, that real money started to roll in, I started to see that future that I wanted for my family as possible. Now it's not without its problems.
Some may say that what I'm doing is hurting a lot of people. But if what I do is for my family is that's so wrong? Now I know you're supposed to be one of these coach-type experts, but my situation is unique. I doubt that you have seen my kind here before, so coach here I am, asking for your help. Am I wrong to do something that may be wrong to make a future for my family?"
Damn Walt. That's a hefty boy.
[00:09:32] Jon Rom: That's, uh, you know, the fir by the first sentence you're, you're drawn in. Um, and I, I, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for Walt that he's going through this, cause it's, you know, obviously, cancer is an unbelievable burden both emotionally and financially. And I think that, uh, it's, it's, it's not a coach's place to judge their, their coachee, their client.
Um, but to try to understand where they're coming from. And to assume positive intent, even if, even if you're not necessarily gonna agree with your client's choices, you need to come from a place of understanding. And it's pretty heavy stuff right out the gate though. Hey Jonathan.
[00:10:23] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. I, I, I agree.
And one of the things that we have to do when we have a journal like this, we have to kind of take time to check our story at the door and take notice of the different things that trigger our emotional responses for me, as a, as a coach who has, um, a sibling, who's a cancer survivor, the second that word cancer comes in, I'm like, oh, damn, that's like an intense experience.
Um, you know, like they're going through chemo, they're going through lots of different things. Oh my God, how are they doing it? Wow. Like what power, but also they must be so sad. But at that moment, when I do that and when I'm pro-processing my feelings, I'm projecting my own feelings onto somebody else.
So what I have to do is say, we actually don't know at all, what Walt's experience of cancer is, or what his experience with his family is. And we have to ask around what that experience is. We don't want to, you know, play the doctor here and say, oh, like, tell me about your cancer. Like maybe we know somebody or anything like that.
We want to hear as much as we can to try to sort it out. But in this journal, what's interesting is that cancer doesn't seem to be the issue that Walts wants to discuss. He's talking about his family's future as sort of a key thing that he wants to discover. So. Jon, where do we start? Do we do, do you start with cancer?
Do you start with the comp the, the stake in gray matter, whatever that is giving that away for $5,000, that seems important? Do you start with the problem that Walt brings? Where do you go? Where, how, how do you sort of process this journal?
[00:12:13] Jon Rom: I guess, I guess I try to think about what my initial reaction is, which is to kind of focus on this, this chemistry-based business venture that uh, Walt seems to be, uh, uh, pursuing a, I because I think that's.
That's where your interest just naturally dives to it's it's the most, um, uh, it's the loudest part of them, of the journal entry, but in reality, like what seems to be te, the starting point, and the real thing is providing for the family. And we don't know anything about the family. We don't know anything about, uh, uh, who is. And then other than Wal Jr. We don't, we don't know, uh, what their needs are and what it is that's driving this change, this decision making, because, uh, this, this Walter seems to be very externally focused, uh, and, and we need to understand what his focus is on.
[00:13:23] Jonathan Friedman: It's very, it, it is tricky because, on one hand, you want to give a lot of care to the things that seem to be causing pain, but in journals like this, it's easy for us to assume what pain is when those things might not be the pain for that individual.
The pain might be in somewhere, in another portion of the journal or another portion that's not even presented yet. So whenever we're looking at a journal like this, especially one that involves something that has physical or, you know, familial implications, the first thing you wanna do is really check, um, you know, not say like, oh, you're doing cancer so are you going through chemo?
Maybe that person, you know, isn't a further state of cancer, um, that is not so easily treatable. Maybe there's experimental care. Um, and that's not something they're wanting to pursue. They'd rather have a different, you know, in, in that case, it could be an end-of-life situation or something like that.
So you never want to just jump in and say, oh, how's chemo going? How's radiation? You kind of want to create a question that creates the space for them to share their experience with you. Should they choose to share it again in this journal? Uh, it seems that it's not the critical piece at all, but you want to check it and see if they're okay, but, um, I'm interested in that relationship with that family. It seems like everything that Walt is doing in some way or another, whether it's right or wrong, who are we to judge?
Is it to build something for that family?
[00:15:01] Jon Rom: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's important to note that coaching, uh, doesn't permit people or take away permission to do things and uh, it's one, I think, I think it's an easy mistake to make when you're coaching is to, uh, see if it aligns with your team and say, okay, well it does. So I give you permission permit you, Uh, and that's, you know, that's essentially what, what Walt does is asking. And in the end there, am I wrong to do something, uh, uh, to make a future for my family?
It's, it's important to note that we can't give, you know, green lights for people to do things, but what we can do is see if it aligns with their value system and identify what it is they're even trying to do here. And see if that, if that, if their actions, uh, lead to that, or if their actions are, are sort of uh, leading them astray or missing the mark because that's less of a judgment call and more, more of a thing is once you get more information and you ask the person what their values are and what their beliefs are, you can kind of see like, okay, do these things line up.
[00:16:10] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. And listeners out there.
This is a new, uh, style of the journal for us to be receiving on the podcast. But if you have any thoughts about sort of how you would, like if you were to jump into the coaching shoes, which are, you know, they're real, shiny, real good pleather, um, you know, they're those real pointy, shiny shoes.
Um, how would you respond to a journal that has this kind of, you know, gravity toss, a lot of weight, a lot of different pieces moving? Where, where would you go with that? And you can definitely. You know, we'll be posting this all over social media, feel free to chime in and let us know what your thoughts are.
Uh, we're gonna take our jump at how we would go about it, but we'd love to hear your thoughts. And if you have a different way of going about it as well.
[00:16:55] Jon Rom: Jonathan, why, why is it when you sent me my coaching shoes? They were New Balance.
[00:17:00] Jonathan Friedman: Well, I feel like. I feel like some people want to style and some people want comfort.
And I feel like if, you know, we, we both know that we've been glued to these chairs for years, just running this podcast, going through as many journals as we can. And if I was gonna
[00:17:16] Jon Rom: two years, yes.
[00:17:17] Jonathan Friedman: If I was gonna Amazon ship something to you, I wanted to give you something comfortable to wear easy to slip off, and, the thing that you could wear that had Velcro on it. Cause laces are stupid.
[00:17:28] Jon Rom: so you looked at me and you said this guy has so much style already. What he needs is comfort and balance.
[00:17:35] Jonathan Friedman: And Velcro, lots of Velcro.
[00:17:38] Jon Rom: And Velcro. Well, that's why, yeah, that's true. It's more Velcro than the shoe, Jonathan.
[00:17:42] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Uh, New Balancelly one of the only shoe companies that make a Velcro adult shoe.
And I think this is, I mean, there are adults slip-on shoes, there's an adult I saw those Nike shoes recently that you can just jump in and they form to your feet. What happens if you don't jump in perfectly? Do they like to form into like a separate autonomous robot?
[00:18:06] Jon Rom: What does it do?
[00:18:07] Jonathan Friedman: So these, there are these new Nike shoes.
I think it's still like in a, in a very small launch or prototype, but you can jump into the shoe and it forms to your feet,
[00:18:19] Jon Rom: like, like in Back to The Future?
[00:18:22] Jonathan Friedman: Kind of, you know, the idea that like when you're tying up your shoe, you're tying the shoe material closer to your feet for a good fit, especially in an athletic setting.
[00:18:32] Jon Rom: Uhhuh. Yeah.
[00:18:33] Jonathan Friedman: So this does that work for you when you jump into it,
[00:18:37] Jon Rom: you know what these are called? I'm sorry that we're buzz marketing for Nike. This just sounds crazy.
[00:18:43] Jonathan Friedman: We definitely should not buzz the market for Nike, but we can here right now.
[00:18:48] Jon Rom: Okay. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to say that the brand of the shoe and we can edit it and post, I think I found them.
[00:18:56] Jonathan Friedman: I think they're called Fly Ease or something like that.
[00:18:58] Jon Rom: Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm looking at.
[00:19:00] Jonathan Friedman: I think that's what they are. It's it. I mean, what a name.
[00:19:03] Jon Rom: What a name that rolls off the tongue-
[00:19:06] Jonathan Friedman: Fly ease. I mean, you wanna fly easy? You wanna fleazy, but fly, ease. It's kind of, it's harsh.
[00:19:14] Jon Rom: These look crazy. Oh, I see. It's for people who are, who are disabled, who can't tie their shoes.
So the shoe forms around you.
[00:19:26] Jonathan Friedman: And it, it, it's an amazing concept. I'm just my question is that if you put your feet in, but you miss the shoe, does it continue to form? Do you know what I mean? Like. Does it like an iron man into his iron man suit. If you miss the shoe.
[00:19:45] Jon Rom: These look, these look pretty fly. I'm not gonna lie to you.
[00:19:49] Jonathan Friedman: Fly ease, man. Fly, ease,
Fly Ease it's true.
[00:19:52] Jon Rom: All right. Sorry. I got, I got wrapped. I got wrapped up in, uh, in shoe talk, which is our other podcast, but we, we, we need to ask questions for, for Walt and I, I don't think they can be shoe shoe-related time.
[00:20:05] Jonathan Friedman: Well, you never, Walt seems like a New Balance person too, not a Nike person, but, uh, we can save that for the later journal.
We have some meat to jump into first. So for me, um, whenever there's a health-related thing, as I said, my first question is gonna be, um, are you pursuing treatment? If so, how is your treatment going? Which, as we said, we never want to assume that somebody is doing a specific thing. We want to kind of leave the space to have that conversation.
And then the second question I have for Walt is, do you, do you, do you get to spend a lot of time with your family in this work? What future do you see for Walt Jr and the rest of your family? I don't know yet, but I have a hunch that Walt's trying to make a future for his family. He's not inserting himself into his family's future, which could be for a lot of different reasons, but does it need to be where Walt doesn't spend time with his family now, while he's trying to make that future.
That's kind of where I'm going with that. Jon, do you have a question?
[00:21:10] Jon Rom: If, if you're trying to create a future for your family and you are hurting people and you are doing things that are not necessarily, uh, uh, uh, savory.
Then you're you are also putting that same future in jeopardy. And so I, I guess the question is what are they, what are, what are the consequences that Walt foresees of this, of this venture, as it relates to the family's future? Both, both positive and negative.
[00:21:46] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Whenever we're talking about consequences, we're looking more in terms of natural consequences. For example, if I went up to Jon and said, Hey, Jon, you're looking real dapper today. The consequence of that is John will give me a high five and think, wow, Jonathan, this Jonathan, the original Jonathan.
[00:22:05] Jon Rom: Okay, well, I am older than you, so that's yeah. Fair, fair.
Patently untrue, but sure. Go ahead.
[00:22:10] Jonathan Friedman: Hey, so, and then as a natural consequence of me lying is I lose my good friend's trust.
[00:22:17] Jon Rom: Exactly.
[00:22:19] Jonathan Friedman: So con consequence doesn't need to be. Um, positive or negative, but we use that word more behaviorally to understand, like, what are the implications of doing one thing and how do they affect other things?
[00:22:29] Jon Rom: Yeah. Cause and effect it's it is the name of the game you, you got, you gotta also be able to identify what are the eventualities, what, what pops up when you do things and not just, you know, not treat it all as, okay. Let's only focus on the negative or the positive, like look at it holistically
[00:22:47] Jonathan Friedman: are cause and effect D and D spinspinoffs
[0:22:50] Jon Rom: Cause and effect is the, uh, explanation of time, which time is a big part in D and D cuz there is time travel. So yeah, I guess technically it is.
[00:23:03] Jonathan Friedman: Damn. All right. Well that answered my question. That I'm good with that. So, uh, segue alert. We're gonna move on to, uh, to, uh, to, to a quick break.
Uh, maybe there will be a word from our sponsors. We have sponsors now who knows? I'm I don't.
[00:23:19] Jon Rom: We leave room for them, certainly.
[00:23:20] Jonathan Friedman: And, uh, just like New Balance. Uh, we'll see you on the flippity flop.
[00:23:44] Jon Rom: This week's episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Segways. Segways when you can't, uh, walk. Very far or you, um, uh, like to stand while you're moving in a motor vehicle or you have to be a tourist in a place that is trying to attract more tourists. Uh, what else? What else is wrong with them? What else do, what else does segways do?
[00:24:13] Jonathan Friedman: They're the slowest point between points A and B in a conversation, at least in our conversations.
[00:24:23] Jon Rom: yeah. If you're looking, if you're looking to kill a conversation, uh, bring up your segway
[00:24:28] Jonathan Friedman: or a few minutes, your podcast episode, when nobody's noticing.
[00:24:32] Jon Rom: If you want. Yeah. If you want to fluff, fluff, uh, that time a little so that you're. Uh, a, a nice round number after editing, uh, segues for all your segue needs.
So, all right, we're back.
[00:24:48] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Well, we have sponsors. Wow. How, how did that happen? We we've grown up.
[00:24:54] Jon Rom: So are we gonna have, or we have like fun music that we put in the background. That's like different from our theme music, just like, so they know that it's an ad, like dog doo.
Do, do, do, do,
do, do, do, do, do,
do do, do
And then it just loops.
[00:25:12] Jonathan Friedman: Well, we're, we're legally bound to use, uh, The Swindler by Ian Post and the Original Orchestra. Um, but if you want to give that recording, I go yourself. Uh, I'm down to throw it in. Uh, we'll talk to Jonathan Davis and, uh, the remainder of the council to see, uh, what we can do.
[00:25:31] Jon Rom: Okay, that sounds good to me.
[00:25:32] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. It's it's reasonable. Right?
[00:25:35] Jon Rom: So have we heard back from Walt Wal Walter?
[00:25:38] Jonathan Friedman: Of course, he's very, uh, astute and very quick to respond, which is great to have in a client, but as always, Walt is throwing us these curve balls. So as always going to give a bit of a sniffle and then we're going to go ahead and read this journal.
Character coaching sponsored by reactant. Um,
[00:26:05] Jon Rom: Character coaching sponsored by Sniffles.
[00:26:08] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah, the true a chew.
[00:26:12] Jon Rom: When your, when your nose runs, you know, was number one.
[00:26:17] Jonathan Friedman: Character Coaching, nothing to sneeze at.
[00:26:19] Jon Rom: Nothing to sneeze that there you go. That's very good.
[00:26:21] Jonathan Friedman: Nothing to sneeze at the Jonathan Friedman story. I'll take it.
[00:26:25] Jon Rom: Um, okay. So people are sneezing at me constantly.
[00:26:29] Jonathan Friedman: Are they?
[00:26:30] Jon Rom: A chew? They say in my ear, on the subway.
[00:26:33] Jonathan Friedman: I'm sorry to hear that, man. It's not nice.
[00:26:35] Jon Rom: Well, it's you, you're the one who's doing it., So.
[00:26:38] Jonathan Friedman: How do you know, how can you be so sure?
[00:26:41] Jon Rom: Don't Gaslight me.
[00:26:43] Jonathan Friedman: We'll save that one for another episode. You can write it. You can submit a journal, John. Just like all of you listeners can, uh, if you choose send it to Jonathan's at the journal, that.a t the journal, that dot Jonathan's with the z at thejournalthattalksback.com.
You think I'd be able to say my own company, but here we are. Um, so I'm gonna go ahead and give Walt's journal a read, listen, close friends.
"Yes. I am still pursuing treatment because that's what my family wants. I am on chemo and fighting like hell. The future I see for them is one where Walt Jr can go to college and have his treatments paid for, without any worry, junior Skylar and our newborn, Holly can have food and shelter at a minimum, but if I have my way, they will want for nothing. It's the only way. No, I don't see them too much because my work schedule keeps me busy"
well, that's elusive.
[00:27:38] Jon Rom: Yeah. It's pretty enigmatic. Eh, but also it's kind of sad.
[00:27:47] Jonathan Friedman: What's sad about it to you?
[00:27:49] Jon Rom: Um, I, I guess being on chemo is such a terrible thing and, and, and I've seen him many times in my work and, uh, to do it for someone else is not, it's not, it's not something that I, that I, I would do for myself.
Or I would want for myself to be, to be on chemo for the sake of someone who isn't me, because it's just, it's such a terrible burden to go through. If you're not, uh, trying to, you know, hold onto your life, uh, albeit for someone else's expectations. And that Walt's is, uh, uh, seeing the future. and, and in no way sees himself in it, I think is also driving a lot of this decision making it's it's, it's, it's a, it's a belief system that when you don't have to worry about the consequences, you end up making the decisions that are, that maybe are a little more intense, a little bit more daring, but, uh, not necessarily.
Not necessarily what's best for everyone, but again, you know, we withhold judgment and we know that the intent, and we know that the intent has to be assumed to be positive. So we assume the positive intent here. Then, Walt is trying to create, a positive future, uh, for, uh, his family. But then the logical consequence of not seeing them is that what little time he believes to have left is being spent on this venture and not being spent with them.
[00:29:35] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. And we know from that first journal, too, that this venture may not be, as you put it savory, um, like a potato role we're we're not, um, sure. And you know, in this case, there's a lot of moving parts. There's, uh, there's what te what seems to be a, like a pretty hefty illness.
There's cancer. There's um, a big journey to sort of providing for the family for the future. Um, and we know, uh, in most countries cancer treatments and, um, you know, any medical treatment as, uh, he's saying for his son junior, um, and having a newborn, we, college funds, healthcare, all of that stuff. Isn't cheap.
Um, so we don't necessarily need to take the time to go into what may or may not be unsavory. We wanna kind of see if Walt is acting in line with his values. And also because Walt's a new client, we wanna work to build that trust, to understand what's making him tick. Maybe later we can have a discussion about really what's right or wrong, but here we wanna kind of get to get to the crux of the issue, and also understand a bit more about what's driving Walt to make his decisions.
And it could be that we don't move him from being savory or unsavory to unsavory. I, I don't know how to unsavory to sweet. Like I, I'm not sure, uh, how to follow through it.
[00:30:59] Jon Rom: At least, at least, at least to the tsunami you know?
[00:31:02] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Like the perfect balance, like Parmesano Reggiano.
[00:31:06] Jon Rom: Oh my goodness. Hey, I have a question for you.
Did you end up taking chemistry in high school?
[00:31:11] Jonathan Friedman: Oh man. Um, so, uh, in grade 10 I ended up switching schools and I switched schools. So basically both schools I was at had the science units, biology, physics, and chemistry in inverse order. So I did physics and then I did biology at or started biology at one school.
And then your school started with chemistry or something like that. So when I switched, I never actually learned Chemistry and we had this teacher who was a gym teacher who was teaching us science. And he didn't care whether or not I was successful in this transition and that's not throwing anything. It just that's. That was my experience as an angsty 15-year-old. And I learned nothing about chemistry. I think you and two other people were like, Jonathan, this is what nomenclature is. And I just couldn't follow along at all. I had no basis for understanding. And I, I got, I think a 48 on my final exam and my teachers looked at me and said what happened?
And I'm like, you happened.
[00:32:16] Jon Rom: Okay. So that means, so that means that if you were, had to put your rack, your brain. For what chemistry-based venture Walter is undergoing you wouldn't be able to come up with any ideas because all I've come up with is that slime from, uh, from the Spider-Man movies that he makes into webs.
Like that's probably the most profitable thing I could think of from a chemistry lab at that, at that level of, uh, uh, cuz uh,
[00:32:42] Jonathan Friedman: yeah. Biotech, right?
[00:32:44] Jon Rom: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:32:46] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. The the real good, good. Real good. Good. Yeah. It's like me as, as this guy's coach, I don't, I don't know what he's talking about. I have no clue.
[00:32:58] Jon Rom: Like if maybe he's Spiderman,
[00:33:01] Jonathan Friedman: maybe is this a crossover episode? I'm not sure, but. Um, we don't know who Spider-Man is that, uh, that, that journalist, uh, Jonah Jameson is, seems to have some ideas, but, uh, we, we have yet to find out,
Yeah, that'll work well in this show. yeah,
[00:33:29] Jon Rom: oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Uh, uh, Mr. Jameson, you're right. You would never say something so crude.
[00:33:35] Jonathan Friedman: Um, yeah, we don't wanna be liable against Jonah Jameson.
[00:33:39] Jon Rom: It's true. He will Sue us, uh, into the next century. He, uh, he takes no prisoners from what I get.
[00:33:45] Jonathan Friedman: He'll take pictures with really old cameras and we'll, we'll be, we'll be forced to vacate the premises.
[00:33:51] Jon Rom: I'm guessing. I'm guessing next week's journal might end up being from, uh, from JJ himself, JJ, J himself.
[00:33:59] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Trying to lure us into his journalistic trap.
[00:34:03] Jon Rom: His, or to tell us more about his son. The Astronaut.
[00:34:07] Jonathan Friedman: He has a son?
[00:34:08] Jon Rom: We've got off. We've gotten off course.
[00:34:10] Jonathan Friedman: we've gotten off course.
[00:34:12] Jon Rom: Get me that segue that no good dirty segue.
[00:34:18] Jonathan Friedman: so for me, where I want to go with this journal is I want to know if he wants to spend more time with his family and every journal so far, which is only two. Like let's take that where it is, but in all the journals we've gotten so far. The focus is on family, family, family, family. But no, I don't see them too much, even though that's like, in terms of the writing style, it doesn't sound like that's where the pain is.
I mean, you know, fighting through health, through chemo cancer, losing his birthright for $5,000 a month of rent for his son's treatment. So on and so forth. Doesn't seem like that's where the pain is from the writing, but it kind of comes up a little bit. Now I don't see them too much because my work schedule keeps me busy.
So, uh, I'm gonna be bold as a coach. And, I'm wondering if Walt would like to spend more time with his family. Is there a possibility that he can enjoy some of that future with them? I'm but I'm gonna add in that question. I may be wrong, but I'm just curious. I never wanna like tell somebody what they're feeling.
I wanna take a guess. And the other question I want to ask is how much more time Walt needs to secure that future, that he's seeking that vision. Um, Jon, do you have any questions for Walt?
[00:35:40] Jon Rom: Well, is, you know, you know, I, you know, I think, uh, I think that you, you can make an argument that the venture has taken a priority in, in this person's life, because it's it just, it just stands to reason that if you're spending, if you're spending all this time doing this for your family, you'd want to spend more time with the family. And if it's, and if it, and if the venture is keeping you away, it's not that the venture is completely selfish and it's not like you're not doing it at all for the family, but the venture may be taken on a role of itself.
And, and I think that, uh, you can justify anything. With a given enough time and given enough good reasons, but just because you have good reasons, doesn't mean those are the actual reasons you're doing something, which is probably gonna be the nugget of the episode, because I think, uh, which, you know, I guess it's a little, it's a little bit Hotty of me to decide that, but I just think it's a, I think it's a, I think it's a very important thing to point out is that people will often in their journals give these amazing reasons for why they're doing stuff.
and then we, we, we look at it a little critically and we say, Hey, I'm gonna challenge you and say, is there a different reason that you're doing it other than this, you know, the good reason you gave me. And, and, and it'll come to light that maybe it's a little bit, a little bit of both, or a little bit of more of, of different reasons.
It's not as, uh, quote-unquote good or as valid or as noble, but it's, it's legitimate.
[00:37:13] Jonathan Friedman: Like in, in our day to day, Um, in everybody's day to day, not just waltz, we all do things that we're doing them for a reason that we think is good, but may or may not, you know, like it may or may not lead to some level of stress or anxiety.
And for some of us, we may be a bit more predisposed to that stress or anxiety. So that's one thing. But on the other side, for many of us, the reason we start to feel stress and anxiety is that what we're doing in our day-to-day is not aligned with the reason why we're doing it. While John and I don't know for sure about what Walt does that may be unsavory or what Walt is doing that may or may not be aligned with his goals.
We're taking a pretty good guess that his goal is not actually to spend time with his family, but rather to focus on his venture. While Jon and I're sure have our own opinions about whether or not that's the right thing to do. It's not appropriate or smart or even a good move for us as coaches to place our beliefs on Walt.
We want to take the time to understand what he's doing, why he's doing it, and how his mind is sort of ticking around it to understand the scope of what's going on. It could be that might lead us down a bit of a dangerous path. Like who knows we don't that's for sure. But it could be that it'll lead us to some greater understanding and in coaching, that's always our goal.
So even if it's more of a, uh, a bold or a, a path that seems like it's not, it doesn't seem like it's the nice way to go. It's probably the right way to go. We're following our curiosity here. And what is coaching, if not using our bloodhound noses to find the crux of the issue.
[00:39:00] Jon Rom: Yeah. I mean, like for all we know we could be completely off base and, and Walter isn't that no good, dirty web-slinging, uh, the menace that is terrorizing New York City and, uh, uh, trying to bring down the daily bugle.
[00:39:20] Jonathan Friedman: I feel like a lot of shit goes down in New York, you know, like, uh, we hear from Jonah Jameson, we hear from other journalists, there's always like some, some hefty big deal sort of world-ending item that happens there.
I wonder what it is about New York. Is it that aliens want Junior's cheesecake? What is it?
[00:39:40] Jon Rom: I think they're trying to buy a stake in Shake Shack
[00:39:44] Jonathan Friedman: is shake shack good?
[00:39:47] Jon Rom: Jonathan.
Jonathan. I need to look up if shake shack is made with peanut oil. Cause if it's not, then you need to inject it into your veins along with me, cuz that's the, uh, that's the only drug I care about.
[00:40:00] Jonathan Friedman: Oh, I, I think I just, I think I tried to shake shack for the first time recently. Actually.
[00:40:05] Jon Rom: How was it?
[00:40:05] Jonathan Friedman: It was pretty good. I know you love it. It wasn't the best. Sorry, shake shack.
[00:40:11] Jon Rom: Don't blasphemy on our show.
[00:40:15] Jonathan Friedman: I'm, I'll be honest. There's one burger for me. And it's holy Chuck in Toronto. It's uh, oh yeah, you have this one burger called the raging bull, which is double patties, double bacon, double cheese, all grilled together in a Chipotle sauce.
I'm drooling topped with, uh, fried onions and jalapenos and this burger. It's not a healthy choice. It's not at all, but it's, it's the choice for a burger in my, in my,
[00:40:42] Jon Rom: this is getting, this is getting, this is getting obscene.
[00:40:45] Jonathan Friedman: So, Hey, listen. Sometimes if you're dealing with a hefty journal, you have to take a break to think about what is the best burger is.
[00:40:53] Jon Rom: Is that our next bad break for you?
[00:40:54] Jonathan Friedman: It must be.
[00:40:57] Jon Rom: Shake shack, shake shack is not the best burger, but it is the best fast food burger. In my opinion, I don't think I've ever had anything better. Although I know anyone with a horse in this race listening will be like, what about in and out? I've never had in and out.
I've never been to that side of the country. I'm sure it's fine. I, I just love shake shack.
[00:41:17] Jonathan Friedman: Have you had a shake at shake shack or is it just a burger place?
[00:41:20] Jon Rom: Have I had a shake at shake shack? Have I lived. Have I lived? Yes. I've had a shake
of shake. Exactly. Very good. Made with custard.
[00:41:28] Jonathan Friedman: Custard, custard.
Isn't that the guy from a clue.
That sink in for me?
[00:41:37] Jon Rom: No, that's that's Colonel mustardy. Oh, that, wow. That took a long time.
Oh man. Okay. Well, I'm gonna go get a shake shack burger on my segue and you can take, uh, you can take us to the, uh, final post, uh, final, final, final reply. Uh, once you get it.
[00:42:04] Jonathan Friedman: First, uh, I'd like to give a word from, uh, from the hosts word from our sponsors and the truth is we don't have any sponsors. We're, uh, we're, uh, a self run podcast from, uh, the company, the journal that talks back and one of the best things that we can. To sort of help us out to get out into the world, to get into that ether, the ether, what is ether?
I'm not too sure. Um, is to give us a listen, give us a review on your favorite listening platform and also perhaps engage with us on social media. We're everywhere. We're on Instagram at journal that talks back we're posting new episodes. Every. We're on LinkedIn. We're on Facebook. Uh, I think John said one episode, a few episodes ago that we're on Christian mingle.
So really we're everywhere. And if you see a, a cartoon version of Jon and me, and I guess, you know, this is a podcast, you don't know what we look like, but when you see that cartoon version of us, you'll be like, oh, damn, that must be John and Jonathan.
[00:43:02] Jon Rom: Let's look up character coaching. You'll find us.
You'll find us wherever you need.
[00:43:06] Jonathan Friedman: And yeah, just, uh, say hi, uh, let us know what you think. And, uh, as we said earlier, this episode, uh, we approach this journal with Walt in a very specific way. We'd love to hear how you'd approach it. So, uh, yeah, tune in, let us know, leave us a review, give us a share, give us a light, give us a subscribe.
[00:43:24] Jon Rom: And you know, you know, Jonathan's being very modest, but he, he founded a company where people. Get coaching at a very affordable rate, uh, way more affordable than, than the, than the classic model. And, uh, it it's really, it's really opened up a lot of doors for people who have been able to get, uh, this, this kind of one-on-one coaching experience without having to break the bank.
And if you're interested in something like that, it, uh, it'd be a good idea to go over to the journal that talks back.com, uh, and just check it out, give it a., Uh, and you'll get your own, you know, free assessment that you'll be able to, to be assigned to coach for and, and find out if coaching is for you.
[00:44:08] Jonathan Friedman: That's exactly right. So yeah. Give us a firstname.lastname@example.org and character coaching, and all of the episodes are there as well. So, you know, it's a good time. That's how you should end off every outbreak.
[00:44:21] Jon Rom: You know, it's a good time. It's a good time. Yeah. It's a good time. Yeah, that, that, that was question word.
Exclamation word. Yes, love it.
[00:44:27] Jonathan Friedman: So we got, um, a journal back from Walt and it's interesting because I think sometimes on this, on this show, we're able to, you know, take a few journals, have a big conversation and sort of move things to a direction that we feel is good. And that collectively we can all feel as good.
But I I'll be curious to hear what you think about this one. Jon, are you ready?
[00:44:50] Jon Rom: I'm so ready. Bring it.
[00:44:53] Jonathan Friedman: Bring it, bring it on. Um, here it is.
"Well, the thing is that, well, it's complicated. I'm starting to realize that maybe this other part of my life is really me and that I need to secure future for what I created my family.
But I think the thing that makes me happy that makes me truly happy is this chemistry it's exciting. I will work to secure their future and I will work to secure my legacy. Thank you, coach. I have clarity now." That's don dun.
[00:45:22] Jon Rom: Don yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:24] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. It's like the jaws theme. It's like, well, so let, let, let's take a moment to reflect, I think on like, what is good here from a coaching vantage point, which is that.
Clarity is kind of a critical piece. We've been talking in this episode a lot about how, when we're not acting in line with what we want, or, it kind of breeds cognitive dissonance in our head. We have that like fist clicking piece that we're, you know, we're, we're fighting with our brains.
Oh, we should be doing or why we're doing that thing in this place, in, in this, uh, instance. Through our conversation with Walt, we're starting to discover that Walt's value isn't so much his family. He's starting to put together that he wants this certain legacy and that he wants to finish what he started, but what he loves, what excites him is this chemistry.
Now, I'm not sure if he's making the latest and greatest, fast food burger. Maybe he's some sort of food scientist. I think that's something that people do. I'd love to meet a food scientist one day. I feel like they would make me happier in my world. Um, but, um, I mean, if we were to continue with this, I'd love to know a bit more about what the clarity looks like for Walt.
And then we could sort of explore that more. Jon, where, where, where do you look at them, like, how do you look at this journal?
[00:46:58] Jon Rom: I think, I think that we, as coaches are going to end up giving people a lot of drive and clarity, and that's going to have different results for different people, but it's good to know why you're doing what you do and to do it with purpose.
Uh, I'm gonna say something controversial. I think it's, I think we decide as coaches to give people their, their clarity, whether we agree with what they're doing or not, because at least, uh, they don't get to the conclusions that they get to and be like, why did I even do this in the first place? I don't think it's gonna have that issue.
Uh, uh, and because we don't, we, you know, we, we have a, we have a pretty vague idea of what it is that, uh, Walt's gonna use chemistry for. um, even if it's web sling, even if it's burger-flipping, even if it's, uh, you know, making the next, uh, the next, uh, a great cure for, for cancer, we don't know what's gonna be, but we know that we've given him a, a, a, a more, uh, clear sense of purpose.
And I, and I think there's value to that.
[00:48:09] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. I think that's really the goal of coaching and that's kind of why we're always outlining the process and the way we outline it. If we were, if we got that first journal from Wald, where he is talking about his journey with cancer, and he's talking about the struggle with his family and losing his business, I'm assuming it was a business.
Um, we would've missed this opportunity to get into what Walt wants. We always wanna sort ask questions to understand a bit more about Walt's beliefs, even if they're not what you know, I would personally agree with. It's not on me to agree. It's on me to help him agree with himself. Right? So, um, I, I I'm, I I'm, I'm gonna send some more questions to Walt in the future.
Um, I hope to continue hearing for him from him and, uh, continuing to discover some more, uh, for some more stuff, but, uh, segue alert I think it's time for, for a listing question. A listeners' question, a listening question. Are you guys listening? Are you listening to me?
[00:49:16] Jon Rom: So listening, are you listening?
Turn it up. It's not about what you heard it's about what were questions, what the questions are.
[00:49:25] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. So this is a good question. I think this, uh, so this comes from Ayamba and Ayamba is, uh, a great listener. And they're just asking for some tips on how to manage burnout and burnout. Is that emotional, physical? Mental exhaustion that usually stems from a workplace piece, but it can also stem from relationships from family. Uh, Jon, what are your favorite ways to manage and deal with burnout?
[00:49:56] Jon Rom: Burnout is an, is a complicated issue because it's it, you know, it's not only is it in Vogue, but it's also, uh, more relevant than it as ever has been.
We're coming uh, out of, or in some people's opinions in the midst of a global pandemic, and we have the, uh, the, the weight of the world on our shoulders, you know, uh, your money is doing less for you. All these, all these different things in society are, are piling on. And then you've got your own personal issues.
Then you've got the things you gotta do at work. It it's a lot, there's a lot going on all at once for a lot of people. And, uh, uh, not to mention like people who are just still in school are, are looking at the world and, and seeing how much energy they're gonna have to put into it and, and are getting, uh, pre burnt out.
They they're, they they're just losing their fire to, to jump in into something that's already a ship that's already looks like it's sinking. So burnout burnout is, is this, uh, is this physical manifestation of this emotional exhaustion that, that I think it. It's it's easy to give tips on how to stave it off.
But in reality, like the best thing to do for burnout is to address the things that are burning you out, right? Like you have to, you have to be willing to do the math on what it is that fills up your cup and what empties it and, and try to load your life up with things that fill you up over the things that, uh, burn you out in the first place.
For some people, that's the big luxury that they, that they simply don't have just because they have to put so much of their time and effort into a job that they don't necessarily love. I know that's a long wind to answer, but, but burnout is a hard thing to, to solve so much as it's a personal journey that you go through to identify what is it that's burning us specifically and how much of it can be mitigated and how much of, of it can be addressed proactively.
[00:51:54] Jonathan Friedman: And I think that proactive piece is really a big piece. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this already, you know, kind of in the middle of a burnout sort of situation, you're already feeling like a bit of that emotional exhaustion. You're a little tired. Yes. A hundred percent like take out your journals bigger out, like what is making you jazz?
Like Jimmy cool jazz and what is making you dive further and spiral down that burnout tower more and more and more. But the other pieces, like into your day build things that light you up a bit more and spread them out a bit more during your week, make that week a bit more reinforcing. But if you're finding that that job is like, or that relationship or that relationship you have with a friend, whatever the case might be is really, you know, just really emptying med cup.
And I think it's like time to have a good conversation about what you want, that relationship, what you want, that job, what you want that life to look like. Right? I think it's really important to decide because you get to choose in a way what you want out of that job or out of that relationship. Yeah.
[00:53:05] Jon Rom: I think that the thing I always think about, and I guess it's very relevant to what we were just talking about with. With Walter was that you gotta identify why you're doing things. And, and for many people, they work a job so that they have money so that they can live their life. And if it's, if it's totally taking the fire out of your life, To do this job, then it's not actually fulfilling the purpose that you need it to do because the, the money doesn't compensate for the fact that it's extinguishing your will to live.
So, so it it's important to identify things that are such a drain on that resource, that, that emotional, personal resource, the, the spice, the sauce, the, the juice, as I like to call it.
[00:53:49] Jonathan Friedman: You know, you love calling a juice, Jon.
[00:53:51] Jon Rom: It's the juice. Well, you know, if you use up all the juice you're, you're done, that's it.
Well, you're, you're dried out. You gotta, you gotta have, you gotta have a little bit left over. Exactly. Don't don't be a sponge outta water.
[00:54:06] Jonathan Friedman: Don't do it. So, um, I hope that was helpful. Um, I know in terms of burnout, it's kind of like, it's an interesting road to go on, but if you have any uh, questions that are burning in your heart, in your soul, in your mind that you'd like to share feel free to send them to Jonathan's with a email@example.com.
We're also on Instagram at journal that talks back on LinkedIn, uh, Twitter.
[00:54:35] Jon Rom: We're visiting, we're visiting your aunt and uncle next week. So if you want to come over and see your cousins who you haven't talked to in a while.
[00:54:42] Jonathan Friedman: Yeah. Let's crack open a bottle of we're gonna be there. Some chicken rotisserie.
It'll be nice.
[00:54:47] Jon Rom: Yeah. Let's chit chat. Or if you're vegan, we'll we'll get to. Some beyond burgers on the part.
Character Coaching is a production of The Journal that Talks Back a product at Frame of Mind Coaching. To get accessible coaching for just $200 a month. Book, a free intake call at thejournalthattalksback.com. Our music is The Swindler by The Original Orchestra featuring Ian Post, our editing is done by one of the Jonathans on the show, which one?
We'll never tell.